Talk:Sengoku Rance:Commander Tips

Recruited Unit Troop Count
[EDITS HAVE BEEN MADE Jamada (talk) 02:17, March 20, 2014 (UTC)] There are other sources of information - but not this wiki as far as I can see - that show that the troop count of a non-prison-recruited unit will be based on the average current troop count of (after some independent research, I have determined that the current troop count does not matter) non-foot units with a maximum unit size of 300 or more troops. (Suzume is an exception that starts off with 120 no matter what, but the calculation appears to apply to other units.) I did my own research (simple spreadsheet stuff) to determine that the maximum starting troop count for a recruited unit one of the first few recruitable units is the [(average of non-foot with 300 or more) * (21 / 25, or 0.84)] and the minimum is [(average of non-foot with 300 or more) * (9 / 16, or 0.5625)] rounded to the closest whole number. If there are no non-foot units with max size of 300 or more troops (or if the current average is less than 300), then 300 is used for the calculation. This makes 169 troops the bare minimum that can be recruited (excepting Suzume's 120) and 252 the minimum that can be maximally obtained in recruitment.

[Important note: fuuka's max-troops-factor as noted is 21/25; uruza's is 24/25; kuge kyouko's is 30/25; others have not yet been tested, but I have a hunch that they are all multiples of 1/25. The min-troops-factor is 75/122 times the max-troops-factor (don't ask why it's 75/112 - it just works). Multiplying the factors by the average max troops (for units with 300+ max troops) gets the maximum and minimum recruited troop count. Rounding must occur at every stage of the calculation (averaging the max troops, max-troops-factor, min-troops-factor) to get the accurate max-min range.]

Importantly, it's not limited by the "max troops ratio" according to unit type. For example, in a completely new first game it's possible to manipulate the troop stacks to start off with a 468-troop miko unit almost immediately (Tamagushi Fuuka after reducing Ranmaru's troops to 299 and increasing Niwa Nagahide's troops to 557) even though that's far above her maximum troops of 315 at the beginning of the game. Of course you could also recruit the ninja or footman instead of Fuuka to get 480 468 of those, but whether you'd want to is questionable. Obviously a bit of save-scumming is necessary to get the desired troop size (which would be more difficult to do when you're recruiting start-of-turn reinforcements), but it could be worth it in the earlier parts of the game.

With that all said, I do have to ask: is that first bit of info on this wiki already? If it is, can you please point it out to me? If not, I think it should probably be added. As for what my "research" shows, I don't believe I've seen anyone else provide the exact calculation used to determine starting unit size, so at the very least it should be novel information. Jamada (talk) 20:02, December 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * > I don't think it's on the wiki, but there's a good breakdown in KrossRoads' faq on gamefaqs.  You can certainly manipulate the average; you can use a commander's guards to boost the average to 7,000 or so and recruit a bunch of megaunits, then pop the average back down so the enemy doesn't benefit when it does recruiting (or they'll run around with 9,999-size units, which is kinda fun in a way).  Alternately, you can just recruit massive foot soldier units, since they don't impact enemy recruited unit size (and are cheaper to reinforce). Also, some units seem to have additional modifiers.  Under the same conditions, recruiting Hachisuka Muneyana would yield 2,500 while Kuge Kiyoko would give 9,999 (even accounting for random chance) -- they're the same class, so you'd think they would get the same starting values, but they don't.  There might some a level cap or some other modifier at work.  I recruited a few monks and they got incredibly low starting values; Haniwa only got 500 or so even with an average troop size of around 8,000. It would be nice to have giant monk units, since they top off for free each round.  Maria worked extremely well with commander's guards and an action book or two, so I'm going to try to recruit them with extremely high values next game.  The damage cap is very low on most attacks, so you get more benefit from increasing stats than boosting unit size.


 * (I indented your comment for presentation. Thanks for the reply.)


 * I knew about that faq (it's where I first learned of the troop calculations). I just think it's weird that the info isn't also on this wiki.


 * That's an interesting point about some commanders having different modifiers to troop count upon recruitment. That KrossRoads faq actually specifies Hakkin Dasan and Kentou Kanami as two commanders with the ability to help hit the 9999 limit easily. In fact, I actually noticed recently that Kentou Kanami had more troops than I was expecting; Kanami having a special modifier to her recruited unit size would make perfect sense. I wonder if there's a pattern that determines which commanders have a large unit size multiplier.


 * I never knew that fact about monks - that they completely heal for free each round. I don't use them very much (even though that remove guard skill would probably be very useful...). As for the damage cap, I knew about that. I think the troop count manipulation is most useful in the early part of the game. Beyond 500 troops they start to lose effectiveness (and cost more NP), so I just look at it as a way to get to 500 as quickly as possible.


 * But the main point of my post was that there's a specific number that you can try to hit when recruiting a unit. If you recruit and hit the lower end (at 0.5625 * average) then you might decide to reload and aim for the higher end (at 0.84 * average). It can make a big difference by making it easy to mow down opponents early on. Of course with some commanders recruiting even more than that, there's obviously something else at play. More research is needed.... Jamada (talk) 08:52, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just a question for clarity
Is the battle formula (attack+commander attack)*10 or attack+(commander attack*10)? This is a pretty huge difference

There are no brackets to the formula. If it was the former case, commander stat is verily useless compared to the based stat.UnknownOrigin 23:34, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Cahnges
Some reasons as to the changes I made:
 * Mori Motonari is not needed for clearing his daughters. I clear them just fine in Ran's route.
 * As far as I have tested, all cleared characters get affection bonus when deployed with Rance. Only one character gets a bonus per battle.
 * I refuse to believe Elina is not outclassed Omachi... -UnknownOrigin 05:22, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

New recent suggestions
Hi, I think that some of the last suggestions are really not necessary. Otherwise we will gonna mention every character in the game.

BUSHI Ranmaru: don't need explanations. Mori Motonari: he becomes a ghost and you can't increase his troops. Akashi Kazemaru: he was present from the beginning, but still I find him not worth of a mention. Morita Ai: if she has to be mentioned, then we should mention every bonus char, when I think only Elina and the monk are worthy. I think Agireda (+2000 troops with two events), Noir (better stats, Auto Heal, Commander Charge), Daidoji (Fan Club) or Honda (Commander Charge, you can recruit him soon) are more worthy of a mention than these one above.
 * as the first warrior (except Rance), Ranmaru is a notworthy captain. Well, it's the same for all the other first captains. Even if they are weak, it's good to mention it because a beginner wouldn't know what to do about them.
 * I think the idea is to tell the beginners that they should think twice before putting too much resource and time on these beginning characters. They could then look up how far away they are from the next good character and decide whether to invest their resource on their current party. UnknownOrigin 07:49, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Kazemaru is a very good character if you have some spare stats books because he gains an equivalent of 2 "stats books 2" for each stat if you manage to level them up to 6. And believe me, after a ton of levies and considering the starting stats of good characters (6 or more), you'll have lots books that you won't know how to use.-Yukimusha 09:22, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there is always Maeda which also gets upgrade. There is also Rance and Suzume (no upgrade, but you can't kick her out anyways), who are mandatory characters. Depending on the path, there is also Koihime. Int books are needed for mage to be useful. Not sure how Akechi and Hara's upgrade work (whether they stack or are literally replace by a new character) UnknownOrigin 07:31, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

FOOT SOLDIER: Maeda Toshiie: I know there are few good foot soldiers in the game, but him?
 * Well, if we take farming low level stat book as a common appearance, if he is at 6 Attack and 6 Def, he can jump straight to 9 with his upgrade.UnknownOrigin 07:31, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

TACTICIAN: Akechi Mitsuhide: again, I can't see the point to mention people you have from the beginning.

NINJA: Suzume: I never tried it but why couldn't you use Action Textbook 2 on her? Also chun-chun shuriken is very useful when you need to break a back-row unit in the preparation phase.
 * Action Textbook 2 are unusable on ninjas-Yukimusha 09:22, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Action Textbook are unusable on ninjas. Action Textbook 2 are usable on everyone. --Reid4891 19:21, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Kentou Kanami: I don't think she's so great. Orime, Kousaka Yoshikage and Kikkawa Kiku are as fast as her and have better states. Inukai is faster. The only good thing for her is that you can have her pretty soon, but I don't think she should be mentioned here.
 * She's just needed to have Maria (thus Shizuka) and Leila. But nothing more.-Yukimusha 09:22, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Goemon: I changed his description.
 * We've been several people to note that "ridiculous" propensity to kill with just little troops. It may be a bug but it's really worth to mention it, isn't it?-Yukimusha 09:22, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

ARCHER: I'd mention only Yamamoto in this section.

Sorry if this was unnecessary, I'm kind of new to wikia, I hope to read what other people think about this section (if it should be changed or left like that).
 * Talk pages are made to prevent errors, to give a guidance to write a page if it's not evident or to make some little notes so it's not unnecessary (and I think it's in fact really useful) :D-Yukimusha 09:22, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. I only thought that there were too many chars mentioned so that could be problematic for beginner to distinguish between useful and not so useful chars. But ok, beside the Action Textbook 2 (and still Mori Motonari, lol) I've no more objections. :) --Reid4891 19:21, November 1, 2009 (UTC)